"But at four and five you better be riding the crap out of them or they wont be a good riding horse"

Wow. I haven't seen a statement this wrong in a very long time. I definitly said that the majority of people I know start their horses at 4. And guess what? They go on to become wonderful horses that are worth tens of thousands of dollars. In fact, the 7 yr old Tb that was 3rd in the STATE who is currently at my barn was started at 4. I guess I better tell his owners that he will never be a good riding horse. :rollin . Perhaps I'll suggest driving!