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May 3 08 5:15 PM
TrickRoperDeluxe wrote: Dutchy wrote: Nothing will convince me a chain bit is not severe. Thats your choice. I understand the mechanics, and I know it will conform to the mouth. But that's not he kind of conformation that makes it less severe, it conforms in a way that pressure is applied to the bars, tongue and lips/corners of the mouth. It will pinch the sides of the tongue and the lips against the bars. No it doesnt. With a well made bit theres no pinching , its just not possible for it to pinch the tongue. What is to be well made about a piece of chain between 2 rings or shanks? And it is possible for a chain bit to pinch (maybe I should use another word for 'pinch', but I can't think of anything else), because of what the bit does when you pull on the reins. It's kinda hard for me to explain it in words in English, so I made some quick drawings in paint, as you will see, I'm not exactly artisticly gifted..... Rough drawing of a cross section of the mouth without a bit, just the tongue (the pink thing) and the bars on either side: And here roughly how a chain would work: When you pull the reins, the chain will extend out of the corners of the mouth a bit because without pressure, the surface on which the bit lies is naturally rounded. The chain flattens it where it lies when you pull, pressing the tongue against the bars, making a straight and thus shorter line, and the chain will extend a bit. And because it's a chain, it will make roughly a 90 degree angle in the corners of the mouth, pressing the lips / corners of the mouth against the bars. When you only pull one rein, it's even more severe, and the chain will rub over the bars. A chain will not lay flat in the horses mouth, any bit will rotate forward when you pull the reins, unless you will always only apply pressure at a 90 degree angle, and in that case, the horse will be behind the vertical. A french link snaffle will roughly do this: When you pull the reins, the mouthpiece will bend upwards, because the solid sides of the mouthpiece act like a lever. This gives pressure at the bars, but doesn't so much press the tongue against the bars. And it won't press the lips or corners of the mouth angainst the bars, because the part that rests on the bars and lips is rigid. So it does give pressure on less parts of the mouth, but generally the mouthpiece is thicker (it should be, I don't think mouthpieces less than 1/2" thick should be used at all) than a chain is, and it is smooth, which is much more comfortable when it moves over the bars. For those who want to test it themselves, put a chain in your mouth and pull downwards and backwards, then put a snaffle in your mouth and do the same. TRD mentioned testing a chain and a snaffle on his arm, and finding the chain more comfortable, but there's a reason for that. When you test an bit on your own arm, you'll have to 'pull' on the bit with your other hand, and by doing that you pinch the rings of the bit together, which will creative a different kind of pressure than when the bit is in the horse's mouth, because than you can't pull the rings towards each other (unless the bit is way too big and you cross your reins under the horse's chin). If you pull the rings together while the bit is on your arm, and the further you do that, you'll have a smaller area where pressure is applied (and thus more pressure) than when you'd pull the rings straight backwards as you would when the bit is in the horse's mouth. Trying a bit in your own mouth is a faulty example. Our mouths are built VASTLY different then a horses. Hence why the arm or palm should be used. Your arm is also vastly different than a horses mouth. It doesn't have parts that can be pressed against each other, and to try a bit on your own arm you can only use one hand, and you will pull the rings of the bit toward each other, something you can't do when the bit is in the horses mouth. Pulling the rings of a jointed snaffle towards each other will give a different kind of pressure (it will pinch much more) than pulling the rings straight downwards / backwards without pulling them closer together. A chain on your arm will do the opposite. When you pull the rings of a chain bit together, the pressure would be applied to a bigger area than when you'd pull the rings straight backwards, and thus less pressure. Huh a bigger area being used vs. a smaller on , hmm which is worse again? On your arm it will give pressure on a bigger area, because again, on you arm you will pull the rings towards each other, something you can't do when the chain is in your horse's mouth. By pulling the rings together the chain will contact more of the surface of you arm, opposed to a jointed snaffle that will contact less surface of your arm by pulling the rings together. So a jointed snaffle will feel more severe than it really is on your arm, and a chain will feel less severe than it really is on your arm. And an arm is nothing like a horse's mouth. Your own mouth isn't either, but it does give a better idea of the pressure applied. Curb bits with a chain mouthpiece are even worse, because of the leverage. And I've never seen one that had a solid metal bar between the ends of the shanks, something that is essential with any curb bit that doesn't have a solid mouthpiece. You don't need a slobber bar on most bits , usually its a personal choice as to wether they are used or not. Could you tell me why its essential? A curb bit with a solid mouthpiece doesn't need a slobber bar, but any curb bit that has a jointed mouth piece in any form does need a slobber bar. Without it, it allows for way to much independant movement of the shanks, which is both very confusing and uncomfortable for the horse. You could for example pull one rein and move only one shank. This will give lots of pressure to only one side of the mouth, more pressure than you could give when the other shank would move backwards to. You could also move one shank sideways, again not really comfortable. Best is to have a slobber bar that is welded to the shanks, although one that is connected by rings is better than nothing. I've corrected many 'problem' horses, and I've never had to use something more severe than a snaffle (smooth mouthpiece, french link or mullen and never thinner than 1/2"). I don't treat horses as pets, but I do believe in being as hard on a horse as I need to be, and as gentle as I can be. I have never had to use anything more severe then a snaffle either.
Dutchy wrote: Nothing will convince me a chain bit is not severe. Thats your choice. I understand the mechanics, and I know it will conform to the mouth. But that's not he kind of conformation that makes it less severe, it conforms in a way that pressure is applied to the bars, tongue and lips/corners of the mouth. It will pinch the sides of the tongue and the lips against the bars. No it doesnt. With a well made bit theres no pinching , its just not possible for it to pinch the tongue. What is to be well made about a piece of chain between 2 rings or shanks? And it is possible for a chain bit to pinch (maybe I should use another word for 'pinch', but I can't think of anything else), because of what the bit does when you pull on the reins. It's kinda hard for me to explain it in words in English, so I made some quick drawings in paint, as you will see, I'm not exactly artisticly gifted..... Rough drawing of a cross section of the mouth without a bit, just the tongue (the pink thing) and the bars on either side: And here roughly how a chain would work: When you pull the reins, the chain will extend out of the corners of the mouth a bit because without pressure, the surface on which the bit lies is naturally rounded. The chain flattens it where it lies when you pull, pressing the tongue against the bars, making a straight and thus shorter line, and the chain will extend a bit. And because it's a chain, it will make roughly a 90 degree angle in the corners of the mouth, pressing the lips / corners of the mouth against the bars. When you only pull one rein, it's even more severe, and the chain will rub over the bars. A chain will not lay flat in the horses mouth, any bit will rotate forward when you pull the reins, unless you will always only apply pressure at a 90 degree angle, and in that case, the horse will be behind the vertical. A french link snaffle will roughly do this: When you pull the reins, the mouthpiece will bend upwards, because the solid sides of the mouthpiece act like a lever. This gives pressure at the bars, but doesn't so much press the tongue against the bars. And it won't press the lips or corners of the mouth angainst the bars, because the part that rests on the bars and lips is rigid. So it does give pressure on less parts of the mouth, but generally the mouthpiece is thicker (it should be, I don't think mouthpieces less than 1/2" thick should be used at all) than a chain is, and it is smooth, which is much more comfortable when it moves over the bars. For those who want to test it themselves, put a chain in your mouth and pull downwards and backwards, then put a snaffle in your mouth and do the same. TRD mentioned testing a chain and a snaffle on his arm, and finding the chain more comfortable, but there's a reason for that. When you test an bit on your own arm, you'll have to 'pull' on the bit with your other hand, and by doing that you pinch the rings of the bit together, which will creative a different kind of pressure than when the bit is in the horse's mouth, because than you can't pull the rings towards each other (unless the bit is way too big and you cross your reins under the horse's chin). If you pull the rings together while the bit is on your arm, and the further you do that, you'll have a smaller area where pressure is applied (and thus more pressure) than when you'd pull the rings straight backwards as you would when the bit is in the horse's mouth. Trying a bit in your own mouth is a faulty example. Our mouths are built VASTLY different then a horses. Hence why the arm or palm should be used. Your arm is also vastly different than a horses mouth. It doesn't have parts that can be pressed against each other, and to try a bit on your own arm you can only use one hand, and you will pull the rings of the bit toward each other, something you can't do when the bit is in the horses mouth. Pulling the rings of a jointed snaffle towards each other will give a different kind of pressure (it will pinch much more) than pulling the rings straight downwards / backwards without pulling them closer together. A chain on your arm will do the opposite. When you pull the rings of a chain bit together, the pressure would be applied to a bigger area than when you'd pull the rings straight backwards, and thus less pressure. Huh a bigger area being used vs. a smaller on , hmm which is worse again? On your arm it will give pressure on a bigger area, because again, on you arm you will pull the rings towards each other, something you can't do when the chain is in your horse's mouth. By pulling the rings together the chain will contact more of the surface of you arm, opposed to a jointed snaffle that will contact less surface of your arm by pulling the rings together. So a jointed snaffle will feel more severe than it really is on your arm, and a chain will feel less severe than it really is on your arm. And an arm is nothing like a horse's mouth. Your own mouth isn't either, but it does give a better idea of the pressure applied. Curb bits with a chain mouthpiece are even worse, because of the leverage. And I've never seen one that had a solid metal bar between the ends of the shanks, something that is essential with any curb bit that doesn't have a solid mouthpiece. You don't need a slobber bar on most bits , usually its a personal choice as to wether they are used or not. Could you tell me why its essential? A curb bit with a solid mouthpiece doesn't need a slobber bar, but any curb bit that has a jointed mouth piece in any form does need a slobber bar. Without it, it allows for way to much independant movement of the shanks, which is both very confusing and uncomfortable for the horse. You could for example pull one rein and move only one shank. This will give lots of pressure to only one side of the mouth, more pressure than you could give when the other shank would move backwards to. You could also move one shank sideways, again not really comfortable. Best is to have a slobber bar that is welded to the shanks, although one that is connected by rings is better than nothing. I've corrected many 'problem' horses, and I've never had to use something more severe than a snaffle (smooth mouthpiece, french link or mullen and never thinner than 1/2"). I don't treat horses as pets, but I do believe in being as hard on a horse as I need to be, and as gentle as I can be. I have never had to use anything more severe then a snaffle either.
Nothing will convince me a chain bit is not severe. Thats your choice. I understand the mechanics, and I know it will conform to the mouth. But that's not he kind of conformation that makes it less severe, it conforms in a way that pressure is applied to the bars, tongue and lips/corners of the mouth. It will pinch the sides of the tongue and the lips against the bars. No it doesnt. With a well made bit theres no pinching , its just not possible for it to pinch the tongue. What is to be well made about a piece of chain between 2 rings or shanks? And it is possible for a chain bit to pinch (maybe I should use another word for 'pinch', but I can't think of anything else), because of what the bit does when you pull on the reins. It's kinda hard for me to explain it in words in English, so I made some quick drawings in paint, as you will see, I'm not exactly artisticly gifted..... Rough drawing of a cross section of the mouth without a bit, just the tongue (the pink thing) and the bars on either side: And here roughly how a chain would work: When you pull the reins, the chain will extend out of the corners of the mouth a bit because without pressure, the surface on which the bit lies is naturally rounded. The chain flattens it where it lies when you pull, pressing the tongue against the bars, making a straight and thus shorter line, and the chain will extend a bit. And because it's a chain, it will make roughly a 90 degree angle in the corners of the mouth, pressing the lips / corners of the mouth against the bars. When you only pull one rein, it's even more severe, and the chain will rub over the bars. A chain will not lay flat in the horses mouth, any bit will rotate forward when you pull the reins, unless you will always only apply pressure at a 90 degree angle, and in that case, the horse will be behind the vertical. A french link snaffle will roughly do this: When you pull the reins, the mouthpiece will bend upwards, because the solid sides of the mouthpiece act like a lever. This gives pressure at the bars, but doesn't so much press the tongue against the bars. And it won't press the lips or corners of the mouth angainst the bars, because the part that rests on the bars and lips is rigid. So it does give pressure on less parts of the mouth, but generally the mouthpiece is thicker (it should be, I don't think mouthpieces less than 1/2" thick should be used at all) than a chain is, and it is smooth, which is much more comfortable when it moves over the bars. For those who want to test it themselves, put a chain in your mouth and pull downwards and backwards, then put a snaffle in your mouth and do the same. TRD mentioned testing a chain and a snaffle on his arm, and finding the chain more comfortable, but there's a reason for that. When you test an bit on your own arm, you'll have to 'pull' on the bit with your other hand, and by doing that you pinch the rings of the bit together, which will creative a different kind of pressure than when the bit is in the horse's mouth, because than you can't pull the rings towards each other (unless the bit is way too big and you cross your reins under the horse's chin). If you pull the rings together while the bit is on your arm, and the further you do that, you'll have a smaller area where pressure is applied (and thus more pressure) than when you'd pull the rings straight backwards as you would when the bit is in the horse's mouth. Trying a bit in your own mouth is a faulty example. Our mouths are built VASTLY different then a horses. Hence why the arm or palm should be used. Your arm is also vastly different than a horses mouth. It doesn't have parts that can be pressed against each other, and to try a bit on your own arm you can only use one hand, and you will pull the rings of the bit toward each other, something you can't do when the bit is in the horses mouth. Pulling the rings of a jointed snaffle towards each other will give a different kind of pressure (it will pinch much more) than pulling the rings straight downwards / backwards without pulling them closer together. A chain on your arm will do the opposite. When you pull the rings of a chain bit together, the pressure would be applied to a bigger area than when you'd pull the rings straight backwards, and thus less pressure. Huh a bigger area being used vs. a smaller on , hmm which is worse again? On your arm it will give pressure on a bigger area, because again, on you arm you will pull the rings towards each other, something you can't do when the chain is in your horse's mouth. By pulling the rings together the chain will contact more of the surface of you arm, opposed to a jointed snaffle that will contact less surface of your arm by pulling the rings together. So a jointed snaffle will feel more severe than it really is on your arm, and a chain will feel less severe than it really is on your arm. And an arm is nothing like a horse's mouth. Your own mouth isn't either, but it does give a better idea of the pressure applied.
Curb bits with a chain mouthpiece are even worse, because of the leverage. And I've never seen one that had a solid metal bar between the ends of the shanks, something that is essential with any curb bit that doesn't have a solid mouthpiece. You don't need a slobber bar on most bits , usually its a personal choice as to wether they are used or not. Could you tell me why its essential? A curb bit with a solid mouthpiece doesn't need a slobber bar, but any curb bit that has a jointed mouth piece in any form does need a slobber bar. Without it, it allows for way to much independant movement of the shanks, which is both very confusing and uncomfortable for the horse. You could for example pull one rein and move only one shank. This will give lots of pressure to only one side of the mouth, more pressure than you could give when the other shank would move backwards to. You could also move one shank sideways, again not really comfortable. Best is to have a slobber bar that is welded to the shanks, although one that is connected by rings is better than nothing. I've corrected many 'problem' horses, and I've never had to use something more severe than a snaffle (smooth mouthpiece, french link or mullen and never thinner than 1/2"). I don't treat horses as pets, but I do believe in being as hard on a horse as I need to be, and as gentle as I can be. I have never had to use anything more severe then a snaffle either.
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