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Oct 29 09 6:25 AM
I have some questions..... What does Mollie do when you put her loose in the round pen? follow you, run around in terror / joy, wander around? When you had the problem haltering Mollie a few weeks ago, and were C/T her for each small step, what did you do if she moved away? What did you do AFTER the C/T for a step? (C/T to touch her nose - did you then walk off, did you lower the halter, did you leave the halter near her nose? After reading the account of your walk and her vaccination, it made me wonder if her reluctance to be haltered was entirely fear or maybe a touch of orneriness as well. What do you think?
Susan, I hope you get to feeling better soon! And I am glad that Mollie was doing better. It occurred to me that I have been spelling her name as "Molly" - sorry, I have a cousin who uses the spelling "Molly" and that is what my fingers type and my brain doesn't even realize! The last couple of times I have posted, I have had to go back through and find every place I have used the wrong spelling and fix it. I've had several days to lay around and think and I believe I've had an epiphany about what you've been trying to communicate. Tell me if this is close. By teaching Mollie to work in the round pen, she may learn to respond to me under a slight/moderate level of duress or distress, which will resolve when she performs the correct behavior. This will have the effect of 1. teaching Mollie to respond to me under stress, and 2. convey to her that correct performance will relieve the stress (e.g escape is possible), and 3. teach her that when I stress her, it won't get "that bad." Number three may get at the "trust" issue you've mentioned. Yes, that is it in a nutshell! I'm sorry that I am so bad about explaining it. My excuses are () a) I've never actually tried to define it in my own mind, much less explain it to another person, and b) I've been a stay at home mom for the last 10 years, so my "adult" communication skills are a bit rusty. I do most of my communication on the level of a pre-schooler. In answer to your questions: Q1. What does Mollie do when you put her loose in the round pen? follow you, run around in terror / joy, wander around? A1. Stands next to me. If I walk, she follows me. Since she already follows you, it could be very easy. (You can absolutely use the clicker for this, at the stage of where I would pet her - but, it's important to do it without holding her on the lead, and to continue "applying pressure" until she stops moving and looks at you.) You don't need a lunge whip or lasso or rope. The two most important things to remember are 1) don't stop the "pressure" until she has stopped (or, at the very first, just thought about stopping and looked hard at you), and 2) WALK AWAY (Edited later to add: or even just turning your back to her and taking a step away) from her after every step (after you pet (or C/T her). You could start with something like a washcloth or small towel and [edited later to add: maybe you only need to hold it, or just flick your wrist. It's actually far easier and faster to do this "work" with a sensitive horse, because you have the advantage of only needing light pressure] wave (as gently as possible, increasing it just to the point you feel her getting a bit uncomfortable) it in the air. If she avoids it, continue waving - if she starts running around the pen, simply step in front of the line of her shoulder as far as you need to so that she turns. As soon as she stops, or thinks about stopping and really looks at you, stop waving it. If she starts to move again (UNLESS she is coming TO you), start waving it again, and continue until she stops and looks at you. Walk up to her (keeping it in you hand, but motionless) and pet her. If she starts to leave at anytime that you are walking up to her, start waving it again, and continue until she stops and looks at you. Then walk up and pet her. Walk away from her, and if she follows, pet her again. If she doesn't follow you, walk back to her. Then wave it again, and keep repeating this process until the level that you were using doesn't bother her anymore. When it doesn't bother her, you should be able to wave it and pet her at the same time - then walk away from her. You should find that she will very quickly start to follow you, even when you have a scary object in your hand. You can gradually (w/ tiny baby steps as much as needed) increase the "scariness" of the object you use). << That is the majority of what I call "round pen work". For an untouched horse, I wouldn't use anything in my hands, just my scary human body. Q2. When you had the problem haltering Mollie a few weeks ago, and were C/T her for each small step, what did you do if she moved away? A2. I don't recall her moving away, she just raised her head or turned her head away. When she raised her head or turned away, I gave a "no-reward marker" (the no-reward marker sounds like "ack ack," sort of like the Martians in the movie Mars Attacks). I then went back to our last successful step, which was touching the halter. What I may have done (with a horse who has already been worked in the round pen), would have been to offer to push the horse away. Maybe flapped a hand, waved an arm, waved the halter - the smallest necessary movement to "try" to chase the horse off. Once the horse stops the "avoidance" movement, immediately stop the excessive movement, and simply try to put the halter on calmly. Repeat as much as possible often as necessary. If the horse was really trying to avoid the halter, I'd go back to the initial work and maybe just try to touch them with the halter on the head, shoulder, neck. Then I'd just hold the halter on my shoulder and put my body in the position that I use to halter them (Edited later to add: and even mime putting on the halter, just without the halter) - without the actual halter being used, until they are totally comfortable with my body position and the halter. Q3. What did you do AFTER the C/T for a step? (C/T to touch her nose - did you then walk off, did you lower the halter, did you leave the halter near her nose? A3. Next was putting her nose in the nose loop herself, then letting me put the nose loop over her nose, then letting me pull it up into place and buckle it. We just progressed until I got the halter on her. I did not want her avoidance to pay off. Not actually the answer I was looking for, I wondered if, when you put her nose in the loop, and then did the C/T, did you then take the halter off, lower it, walk away? All those things would be good to do (in the round pen, so you don't have to walk around a paddock). Walking away (Edited later to add: or even just turning your back to her and taking a step away) from her lets her know that is all that you wanted and give the scary thing an "end". Basically, she thinks "OH, I'm so relieved, that is all I had to tolerate!" That brings her stress level down, it may go up again the next time you approach her, but she will start to think (not literally, but you get the idea), "It's a waste of energy to get stressed out about this little thing that goes away so fast!" and will get less stressed out at each step - even when you increase the pressure (in as small of steps as needed). Q4.After reading the account of your walk and her vaccination, it made me wonder if her reluctance to be haltered was entirely fear or maybe a touch of orneriness as well. What do you think? A4. I'm not sure how you would define orneriness. Orneriness sounds like a human description entailing personal vice -not really a term I would use with animals. So, I don't entirely know how to answer this. I would say that she may have associated aversive events with being haltered, and that caused her to learn to avoid haltering. The avoidance response was simple to modify. Orneriness, in this case to me, meant was she just being difficult because she didn't want to be bothered with being haltered - maybe because of the vet experience, but not entirely because of fear of what had happened. Example, because I know that is somewhat hard to understand - one of my horses can sometimes be difficult to catch quickly. It's not that he is scared, it's just that sometimes he just is being difficult / contrary / a pest, because he simply doesn't want to be caught or be messed with ('messed with' is some of that pre-school language). I thought I ought to add, that I DO not consider working in the round pen to be "work" - for me, it is very satisfying play, with the added benefit of the horse learning things. It should be enjoyable to both you and Mollie. And you probably know, but it deserves mentioning, you should always end it on a positive note, even if you have to go back a couple of levels at the end of your session. Also, once Molly has learned these lessons in the round pen, with the open "escape", you should be able to do the same introduction to things with a halter and lead. Say that you were going to deworm her in the barn. You have her in her halter on lead, and you raise the wormer - she backs up a few steps, you follow her with your hand in the same position it was when she started backing (your hand in the same position is the "pressure" you will be using). As soon as she stops moving, you lower your hand and walk away (ideally right back to where you started). She follows you, and you do it again. It would naturally progress from her backing up, to just lifting her head (you "relieve pressure" when she lowers her head, which she will do eventually), to her standing there to be dewormed. A personal example: Our pony, who has actually never had any round pen work, was afraid to be fly sprayed. I filled up a spray bottle with water, led him out to an open area in our yard and started spraying his shoulder. He started backing up, turning away, and I followed, constantly spraying. AS SOON AS HE STOPPED MOVING, even for a fraction of a second, I stopped spraying and turned around and walked away. I kept repeating this process for his entire body, and it took about 15 minutes for him to stand calmly for me to spray 90% or so of his body. His most difficult spot is his right rear leg, so I worked on that a couple of times (pressure / stop / relieve pressure), went back to the shoulders and the other side of his body and ended there (on a good note) for the day. The next time I handled him, we started the process again and it only took a couple of times before he was fine with the spray anywhere on his body.
I've had several days to lay around and think and I believe I've had an epiphany about what you've been trying to communicate. Tell me if this is close. By teaching Mollie to work in the round pen, she may learn to respond to me under a slight/moderate level of duress or distress, which will resolve when she performs the correct behavior. This will have the effect of 1. teaching Mollie to respond to me under stress, and 2. convey to her that correct performance will relieve the stress (e.g escape is possible), and 3. teach her that when I stress her, it won't get "that bad." Number three may get at the "trust" issue you've mentioned.
In answer to your questions: Q1. What does Mollie do when you put her loose in the round pen? follow you, run around in terror / joy, wander around? A1. Stands next to me. If I walk, she follows me.
Q2. When you had the problem haltering Mollie a few weeks ago, and were C/T her for each small step, what did you do if she moved away? A2. I don't recall her moving away, she just raised her head or turned her head away. When she raised her head or turned away, I gave a "no-reward marker" (the no-reward marker sounds like "ack ack," sort of like the Martians in the movie Mars Attacks). I then went back to our last successful step, which was touching the halter.
Q3. What did you do AFTER the C/T for a step? (C/T to touch her nose - did you then walk off, did you lower the halter, did you leave the halter near her nose? A3. Next was putting her nose in the nose loop herself, then letting me put the nose loop over her nose, then letting me pull it up into place and buckle it. We just progressed until I got the halter on her. I did not want her avoidance to pay off.
Q4.After reading the account of your walk and her vaccination, it made me wonder if her reluctance to be haltered was entirely fear or maybe a touch of orneriness as well. What do you think? A4. I'm not sure how you would define orneriness. Orneriness sounds like a human description entailing personal vice -not really a term I would use with animals. So, I don't entirely know how to answer this. I would say that she may have associated aversive events with being haltered, and that caused her to learn to avoid haltering. The avoidance response was simple to modify.
Co-Captain FFV, UOSL
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