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Posts: 1202
Apr 21 09 8:23 AM
Posts: 9941
Apr 21 09 9:19 AM
mommastang wrote: hotternhel wrote: mommastang wrote: hotternhel wrote: mommastang wrote: Lotys of extended trotting will help build her forearms. Backing and uphill work will help build her gaskins. I would take her to shows for the experience any way. Do whatever classes you are comfortable with. Halter, showmanship and rail. With her breeding she should be a nice pleasure prospect. I would love to see a video of her in action. Backing does not create muscle. What it will do is ruin hocks and stifles. This is one of the first things you will learn from any top halter pro. It doesn't matter if the horse is skinny or fat, heavily muscled or lightly muscled; backing a young horse to try to build muscle will ruin hocks and stifles. Of course teaching a horse to back or backing for for a showmanship pattern is fine, but backing up heavily (as in a lap around the pen or more) is too much. You are asking for future hock injections! Audissius, she looks like she will do fine in open competition. Especially here in Texas. If your area is anything like my area the yearling competition is small in the open circuit. As far as dicisplines she looks like she would do well in WP,trail, etc. Just remember, you cannot CREATE muscle where there is no muscle. You can only ENHANCE what the horse genetically has. She is not a heavily muscled horse and no amount of fitting will make her heavily muscled, it will only make what she has appear more defined. Make sense? Keep her well fed and fit up and you will do fine in the open competition. If you would have been at the open show we went to Saturday she would have won the yearling mares class. If backing doesn't build muscle then why does every trainer I speak to tell me to back Lily to build more muscle in her butt and gaskins? Not trying to start a fight just to get that clear. And I know it does cause leg problems. Just wanting to know why they say it does help create more muscle. I quite like what FTF has already said. Just because a trainer tells you that it helps doesn't mean it will and some trainers will do anything to win. After performing and assisting with over 1,000 hock and stifle injections, I can tell you, excessive backing (espcially on a HUGE halter horse) will ruin hocks and stifles. I'm not being rude here, or trying to start a fight, you are 100% perfectly allowed to believe whatever your trainers tell you, but the statistical data on my side, and (just happening to work for some of the largest halter barns in the country) will tell you backing ruins stifles. I've never seen Fred, Gary, Kathy, Ted, or Tim use backing to build gaskins or any other kind of hind end muscle and the veterinarians at equine associates will advise against it. I'm going to repeat it again because you keep referring to building muscle. You cannot build muscle. You can only enhace what the horse naturally has. I can't remember what your horse looks like off the top of my head, but here's an example. If your horse has what I like to refer to as an "egg butt", the only thing you can change about it is the appearance. You are not going to build muscle, only enhance it. You may get the butt to look more round and get some muscle definition in her hindquarters, but you are never going to develop any hip hang and you are not going to develop bulky muscle. Bulky muscle comes gentically. Some horses have it and some don't. Take Gertie for example. When she was a yearling I was one that believed backing could help build muscle. I was wrong. I fit on her for over a year. Backing never built any muscle. When I moved to Texas, I found out the hard way what backing does do. At any rate, Gertie may not be a halter horse and she will never have a lot of bulky muscle, but she can stay halter fit. Idgie on the other hand, has tons of bulky muscle that is natural for her. If I continue to fit on her, her muscle definition will enhance, but not grow. Take a look at the pally mare's gaskin and hind end. NONE of that got there by backing. Edited to add the dang picture: I do not have a trainer. I do it all myself. And I don't use excessive backing to get muscle. I use backing in training for trail in hand. And excuse me for using the word "build". I will never say it again. I swear it, everytime someone says one wrong word it is like world war 3! All I did was ask a question about backing a horse. And yes, I know several trainers that use it to "ENHANCE" hinquarters and gaskins in their halter horses. Some will just back them in the corner of their stall and make them tighten their muscles by pushing on the wall with their butt. But some will make them back the whole length of the arena.
hotternhel wrote: mommastang wrote: hotternhel wrote: mommastang wrote: Lotys of extended trotting will help build her forearms. Backing and uphill work will help build her gaskins. I would take her to shows for the experience any way. Do whatever classes you are comfortable with. Halter, showmanship and rail. With her breeding she should be a nice pleasure prospect. I would love to see a video of her in action. Backing does not create muscle. What it will do is ruin hocks and stifles. This is one of the first things you will learn from any top halter pro. It doesn't matter if the horse is skinny or fat, heavily muscled or lightly muscled; backing a young horse to try to build muscle will ruin hocks and stifles. Of course teaching a horse to back or backing for for a showmanship pattern is fine, but backing up heavily (as in a lap around the pen or more) is too much. You are asking for future hock injections! Audissius, she looks like she will do fine in open competition. Especially here in Texas. If your area is anything like my area the yearling competition is small in the open circuit. As far as dicisplines she looks like she would do well in WP,trail, etc. Just remember, you cannot CREATE muscle where there is no muscle. You can only ENHANCE what the horse genetically has. She is not a heavily muscled horse and no amount of fitting will make her heavily muscled, it will only make what she has appear more defined. Make sense? Keep her well fed and fit up and you will do fine in the open competition. If you would have been at the open show we went to Saturday she would have won the yearling mares class. If backing doesn't build muscle then why does every trainer I speak to tell me to back Lily to build more muscle in her butt and gaskins? Not trying to start a fight just to get that clear. And I know it does cause leg problems. Just wanting to know why they say it does help create more muscle. I quite like what FTF has already said. Just because a trainer tells you that it helps doesn't mean it will and some trainers will do anything to win. After performing and assisting with over 1,000 hock and stifle injections, I can tell you, excessive backing (espcially on a HUGE halter horse) will ruin hocks and stifles. I'm not being rude here, or trying to start a fight, you are 100% perfectly allowed to believe whatever your trainers tell you, but the statistical data on my side, and (just happening to work for some of the largest halter barns in the country) will tell you backing ruins stifles. I've never seen Fred, Gary, Kathy, Ted, or Tim use backing to build gaskins or any other kind of hind end muscle and the veterinarians at equine associates will advise against it. I'm going to repeat it again because you keep referring to building muscle. You cannot build muscle. You can only enhace what the horse naturally has. I can't remember what your horse looks like off the top of my head, but here's an example. If your horse has what I like to refer to as an "egg butt", the only thing you can change about it is the appearance. You are not going to build muscle, only enhance it. You may get the butt to look more round and get some muscle definition in her hindquarters, but you are never going to develop any hip hang and you are not going to develop bulky muscle. Bulky muscle comes gentically. Some horses have it and some don't. Take Gertie for example. When she was a yearling I was one that believed backing could help build muscle. I was wrong. I fit on her for over a year. Backing never built any muscle. When I moved to Texas, I found out the hard way what backing does do. At any rate, Gertie may not be a halter horse and she will never have a lot of bulky muscle, but she can stay halter fit. Idgie on the other hand, has tons of bulky muscle that is natural for her. If I continue to fit on her, her muscle definition will enhance, but not grow. Take a look at the pally mare's gaskin and hind end. NONE of that got there by backing. Edited to add the dang picture:
mommastang wrote: hotternhel wrote: mommastang wrote: Lotys of extended trotting will help build her forearms. Backing and uphill work will help build her gaskins. I would take her to shows for the experience any way. Do whatever classes you are comfortable with. Halter, showmanship and rail. With her breeding she should be a nice pleasure prospect. I would love to see a video of her in action. Backing does not create muscle. What it will do is ruin hocks and stifles. This is one of the first things you will learn from any top halter pro. It doesn't matter if the horse is skinny or fat, heavily muscled or lightly muscled; backing a young horse to try to build muscle will ruin hocks and stifles. Of course teaching a horse to back or backing for for a showmanship pattern is fine, but backing up heavily (as in a lap around the pen or more) is too much. You are asking for future hock injections! Audissius, she looks like she will do fine in open competition. Especially here in Texas. If your area is anything like my area the yearling competition is small in the open circuit. As far as dicisplines she looks like she would do well in WP,trail, etc. Just remember, you cannot CREATE muscle where there is no muscle. You can only ENHANCE what the horse genetically has. She is not a heavily muscled horse and no amount of fitting will make her heavily muscled, it will only make what she has appear more defined. Make sense? Keep her well fed and fit up and you will do fine in the open competition. If you would have been at the open show we went to Saturday she would have won the yearling mares class. If backing doesn't build muscle then why does every trainer I speak to tell me to back Lily to build more muscle in her butt and gaskins? Not trying to start a fight just to get that clear. And I know it does cause leg problems. Just wanting to know why they say it does help create more muscle.
hotternhel wrote: mommastang wrote: Lotys of extended trotting will help build her forearms. Backing and uphill work will help build her gaskins. I would take her to shows for the experience any way. Do whatever classes you are comfortable with. Halter, showmanship and rail. With her breeding she should be a nice pleasure prospect. I would love to see a video of her in action. Backing does not create muscle. What it will do is ruin hocks and stifles. This is one of the first things you will learn from any top halter pro. It doesn't matter if the horse is skinny or fat, heavily muscled or lightly muscled; backing a young horse to try to build muscle will ruin hocks and stifles. Of course teaching a horse to back or backing for for a showmanship pattern is fine, but backing up heavily (as in a lap around the pen or more) is too much. You are asking for future hock injections! Audissius, she looks like she will do fine in open competition. Especially here in Texas. If your area is anything like my area the yearling competition is small in the open circuit. As far as dicisplines she looks like she would do well in WP,trail, etc. Just remember, you cannot CREATE muscle where there is no muscle. You can only ENHANCE what the horse genetically has. She is not a heavily muscled horse and no amount of fitting will make her heavily muscled, it will only make what she has appear more defined. Make sense? Keep her well fed and fit up and you will do fine in the open competition. If you would have been at the open show we went to Saturday she would have won the yearling mares class.
mommastang wrote: Lotys of extended trotting will help build her forearms. Backing and uphill work will help build her gaskins. I would take her to shows for the experience any way. Do whatever classes you are comfortable with. Halter, showmanship and rail. With her breeding she should be a nice pleasure prospect. I would love to see a video of her in action.
Posts: 3719
Apr 21 09 9:39 AM
http://successinthepen.blogspot.com I'm not a bitch. I just say what some people are really thinking.
Posts: 333
Apr 21 09 10:23 AM
Anyway, I get it. Apologizes to HnH. I have tough skin, I just don't like it when someone takes something I said and makes it into something it wasn't supposed to be. I wasn't telling Audissius to ruin her horses legs. I was just trying to help her is all. Here, Audissius don't back your horse more than a few paces at a time and only a couple times. More than that will ruin her legs. That better.
Posts: 10751
Apr 21 09 11:03 AM
audissius wrote: It's finally been almost a year since I bought my filly. I had her critiqued on here when I first bought her, and I'm aware of some flaws she has, but I'd love to see what people think now that she's filled out and muscled up more. Also, I am planning to show her in some halter and showmanship classes this summer. Does she look fit enough, or is there more I can do to improve her muscling before the shows? I do not want her to look like a beef steer (she'll ultimately be a riding horse), but I do want to present her to the best of my ability. Fire away! Picture taken this past Saturday, 4-18-09: Front legs: Not a great confo shot, but so you can see her neck/head:
Posts: 3069
Apr 21 09 11:13 AM
audissius wrote: Thanks, HnH. I did use your previous advice as an exercise plan for her, and I can tell that it has made a difference. I realize that she's not built with the muscling that a real halter horse should have, but I can definitely see an improvement in what she does have. Here's a direct comparison. Unfortunately the class she'll have to compete in is for 2-4 year olds on the open show circuit I'm going to do. When I watched a show in January, the horses were placed basically in age order, which makes sense since there's no way a 2 year old can really compete against a 4 year old. That said, the 2 year old in question was a total fug - wooly, not groomed, ewe necked and basically a conformational train wreck. Halo may not be a halter horse, but I don't think she's that bad.
Apr 21 09 11:26 AM
Apr 21 09 4:08 PM
Apr 21 09 5:24 PM
mommastang wrote: Has anyone ever though about how much backing reining horses do. The trainer I cleaned stalls for would back his horses all over the place.
Apr 21 09 5:51 PM
Apples wrote: Her bone fits well with her overall build - how tall is she? She's very feminine looking, very elegant, very refined.
Posts: 5974
Apr 21 09 6:53 PM
Apr 21 09 8:17 PM
goflippr wrote: KizmetRanch wrote: mommastang wrote: Has anyone ever though about how much backing reining horses do. The trainer I cleaned stalls for would back his horses all over the place. Reining horses' hocks are SHOT at a VERY early age, because they're started early with very strenuous rides, including sliding stops, rollbacks, and backing up quickly in a straight line. I wish I had more history on my girl... Her hocks are shot too. At least they don't hurt her anymore. I never stop mine hard and back them up. Hocks are precious and sooner or later are gonna go, why wear them out for no good reason? Kiz, your new mare's hocks are shot?
KizmetRanch wrote: mommastang wrote: Has anyone ever though about how much backing reining horses do. The trainer I cleaned stalls for would back his horses all over the place. Reining horses' hocks are SHOT at a VERY early age, because they're started early with very strenuous rides, including sliding stops, rollbacks, and backing up quickly in a straight line. I wish I had more history on my girl... Her hocks are shot too. At least they don't hurt her anymore.
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