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Posts: 645
Apr 4 08 9:35 AM
Posts: 1007
Whoadammitwhoa wrote: forthefutureofthebreed wrote: "That's probably because the first century or so of Appy breeding had absolutely nothing to do with cows." I've got to add that the first century of QHs didn't have anything to do with cows, either. They were race horses. The first century of quarter horses? The AQHA didn't originate until 1940. That still gives them (us) another 32 years, doesn't it? Previous to that time, they were "race and ranch horses".
forthefutureofthebreed wrote: "That's probably because the first century or so of Appy breeding had absolutely nothing to do with cows." I've got to add that the first century of QHs didn't have anything to do with cows, either. They were race horses.
The first century of quarter horses?
The AQHA didn't originate until 1940. That still gives them (us) another 32 years, doesn't it? Previous to that time, they were "race and ranch horses".
Posts: 530
Apr 4 08 9:36 AM
Posts: 3344
Apr 4 08 9:37 AM
vixen of doom wrote: You can't seriously be telling me it's a good thing to breed OUT the toughness and endurance of a breed and instead push towards slow, family-oriented breeding? I don't think it's ever been proven that a horse capable of working high-stress/high-endurance jobs are going to be any less capable to walk around a ring than one that isn't capable of doing those high-stress/high-endurance jobs. Though I do agree in working to keep them marketable, I like the idea of using outside blood to improve on them and add a little more 'pretty' into Appy lines. I don't think they are breeding it out. My apps are a lot tougher than my quarters - but they are crosses. Typically it is a once time cross to get some refinement, then you go back and breed to apps until you start loosing it. It is not that breeders are diluting the breed by constantly crossing them. But it is good to breed them in such a way that they can be marketable and sustainable. There is not a large demand for the old scruggy foundation type app. The issue isn't so much in preserving the actual bloodlines themselves (at least in my mind) as preserving the type itself. That's where I'm not a big fan of the Foundation registries, they focus too much on the bloodlines and not enough on the type. Especially with Appaloosas, since so little of the original bloodlines are left, and most of those are crossed with who-knows-what. They only allow crosses with TB, QH and arab I think the Appaloosa could use a lot of improvement, and a lot of work on getting back to that original type. Turning them into Quarter Horses with spots doesn't improve them as a breed, it just changes them into something else. Quarter horse blood might not be a bad thing to use in Aps, but it shouldn't be used to the point where it takes over. What's the point in that? It doesn't improve on Appaloosa traits it erases them. Honestly, Appaloosas would probably be better improved if something like the Crioulo or even knabstruppers were added as acceptable outcross breeds, since they at least share a lot of Appaloosa look and, with the Crioulos, a lot of the same Spanish ancestry. Quarter Horses are not the end-all-be-all of horse flesh, and I can't see them as the perfect out-cross for Appaloosas when their original uses were so different. ie: Sprint racing and cow working vs long distance trekking and hunting.
Apr 4 08 9:40 AM
ThreeCorners wrote: Quarter horses have ALWAYS had something to do with cows. They were dirived with the ability to work cows from the very beginning, ALONG with being able to run short distances. Someone is going to have to research this, but I think they were originally bred for racing. See the other post about where the name came from - fastest horse in a quartermile.
Posts: 1653
Apr 4 08 9:41 AM
forthefutureofthebreed wrote: "The first century of quarter horses?" The 1600s, to be precise, and afterwards, the Colonies in America, where they were running match races at 1/4 mile. The Quarter Horse didn't originate the minute AQHA was formed and started a registry. LOL.
Posts: 2785
Apr 4 08 9:43 AM
FFV FFV FFV
Apr 4 08 9:48 AM
Posts: 3967
Apr 4 08 9:49 AM
See N Spots wrote: vixen of doom wrote: I don't think they are breeding it out. My apps are a lot tougher than my quarters - but they are crosses. Typically it is a once time cross to get some refinement, then you go back and breed to apps until you start loosing it. It is not that breeders are diluting the breed by constantly crossing them. But it is good to breed them in such a way that they can be marketable and sustainable. There is not a large demand for the old scruggy foundation type app. Not breeding out Appy Characteristics? Then tell me what about this horse makes it distinct from a Quarter Horse without mentioning anything to do with coloring. I'm not a fan of the scraggly foundation type either, which is why I talked about different breeds I think have traits that would better compliment Appaloosa type. I would love to see a few generations of Appaloosas are beautiful without losing the toughness, endurance, stayer-build (as opposed to a sprinter-build), and other qualities that should define an App. I'm not 100% on the complimenting breeds either, but I think the ones I mentioned would be a step in the right direction. . They only allow crosses with TB, QH and arab lol, I'm talking about back when the ApHC books were first created. By then, most of the foundation of Appaloosa blood was a mangle of different breeds with spots. They'd accept just about anything so long as it had the right coloring. So a lot of 'foundation-bred' Appys don't necessarily have a lot of old Appaloosa blood in them.
vixen of doom wrote: I don't think they are breeding it out. My apps are a lot tougher than my quarters - but they are crosses. Typically it is a once time cross to get some refinement, then you go back and breed to apps until you start loosing it. It is not that breeders are diluting the breed by constantly crossing them. But it is good to breed them in such a way that they can be marketable and sustainable. There is not a large demand for the old scruggy foundation type app. Not breeding out Appy Characteristics? Then tell me what about this horse makes it distinct from a Quarter Horse without mentioning anything to do with coloring. I'm not a fan of the scraggly foundation type either, which is why I talked about different breeds I think have traits that would better compliment Appaloosa type. I would love to see a few generations of Appaloosas are beautiful without losing the toughness, endurance, stayer-build (as opposed to a sprinter-build), and other qualities that should define an App. I'm not 100% on the complimenting breeds either, but I think the ones I mentioned would be a step in the right direction. . They only allow crosses with TB, QH and arab lol, I'm talking about back when the ApHC books were first created. By then, most of the foundation of Appaloosa blood was a mangle of different breeds with spots. They'd accept just about anything so long as it had the right coloring. So a lot of 'foundation-bred' Appys don't necessarily have a lot of old Appaloosa blood in them.
Apr 4 08 9:51 AM
GotCow wrote: See N Spots, I think it's great what you do with your horse, I'd never have anything against it. My point is that WP or the other rail classes can't measure if a horse has the typical abilities that have defined QHs for decades. Other than a good mind, which I'm sure good WP horses gotta have, how can you tell if your horse has the rest of those qualities. If you are attending a WP show, can you tell which horses are quick? how many of them can "turn on a dime" pretty fast? can you tell which horses can stop harder from a full speed gallop? I understand WP horses have become specialized and that they are better at it than any other horse, but their specialty doesn't allow people to be certain about their potential for having many qualities that have been required from Quarter Horses since their birth - (which was for racing - not cow work). And that's why I said I don't care about many AQHA Championships, because they don't say much about the horses That's why I can't have any faith on Impressive passing great athletic genes to his descendants, because those horses weren't tested on more physically demanding disciplines.
If I was only interested in working cows with my horses, then I would probably agree with you. Sad that you don't see the value of other's likes and abilities though. You remind me of some of the foundation people I knew in texas. They would talk smack about all the other horses citing not bred for original purpose, too specialized etc.
Apr 4 08 9:52 AM
Posts: 1741
Apr 4 08 9:53 AM
stinkin' double posts!
Apr 4 08 9:54 AM
vixen of doom wrote: Not breeding out Appy Characteristics? Then tell me what about this horse makes it distinct from a Quarter Horse without mentioning anything to do with coloring. Well first of all, who is this horse and lets look at his pedigree before we blame everything you don't like on breeding we know nothing about.
Posts: 587
Apr 4 08 9:57 AM
Ummmm... actually they were working horses that the cowboys used and then raced for fun when they went to town. They got their name for their ability to run a quarter mile... but they were working horses first an foremost.........
Apr 4 08 9:58 AM
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