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Posts: 9196
Sep 23 09 9:44 PM
Posts: 18140
Sep 23 09 9:45 PM
barrelracer89 wrote: WhoKilledBambi wrote: barrelracer89 wrote: xxthephoenix89xx wrote: "I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the United States of America. And to the republic, for which it stands. One nation under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." ^Pride and honor and loyalty to a country. "Mmmmm-mmm Obama" ^Pride and loyalty to a human. Leaders are not people I would consider myself loyal to, simply because if they start acting stupid, I want them OUT of power. Loyalty is NOT a good thing when it applies to ONE person's ideas. Anyone can have a dumb idea, and as a responsible nation, we are to point out and protest those ideas, not be loyal to them because 'our great leader said it so it's true.' Another thing, I think that it should be required that kids at least stand in respect to the pledge. You don't want to recite it? Fine. But you need to respect your country, its history, and what it stands for. If you disagree with everything about it and you hate it that much... go somewhere else. Agreed. Or be proactive and try to change what you honestly think is wrong. That's why we have the Constitution, and that's why the Constitution can be amended. Again. What if you don't believe in states. And you are (like me) actively involved in groups to further your ideology? You still have a right to sit down. I think as long as you're not disrupting the class (and this does not include your teacher having a fit about you sitting), then it shouldn't be an issue. I get taken to church every now and then, and I don't kneel, stand or bow my head to pray. I don't disrupt anyone. No one cares. How is this any different? If you honestly don't want to "pledge allegiance to the flag" then that's fine. . .but honestly, there are other places you could go where you wouldn't have to worry about that. I don't want to sound like I'm saying "love it or leave it", but if you have a problem with the US government/state system/etc. then why wouldn't you put yourself in a more comfortable place?
WhoKilledBambi wrote: barrelracer89 wrote: xxthephoenix89xx wrote: "I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the United States of America. And to the republic, for which it stands. One nation under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." ^Pride and honor and loyalty to a country. "Mmmmm-mmm Obama" ^Pride and loyalty to a human. Leaders are not people I would consider myself loyal to, simply because if they start acting stupid, I want them OUT of power. Loyalty is NOT a good thing when it applies to ONE person's ideas. Anyone can have a dumb idea, and as a responsible nation, we are to point out and protest those ideas, not be loyal to them because 'our great leader said it so it's true.' Another thing, I think that it should be required that kids at least stand in respect to the pledge. You don't want to recite it? Fine. But you need to respect your country, its history, and what it stands for. If you disagree with everything about it and you hate it that much... go somewhere else. Agreed. Or be proactive and try to change what you honestly think is wrong. That's why we have the Constitution, and that's why the Constitution can be amended. Again. What if you don't believe in states. And you are (like me) actively involved in groups to further your ideology? You still have a right to sit down. I think as long as you're not disrupting the class (and this does not include your teacher having a fit about you sitting), then it shouldn't be an issue. I get taken to church every now and then, and I don't kneel, stand or bow my head to pray. I don't disrupt anyone. No one cares. How is this any different?
barrelracer89 wrote: xxthephoenix89xx wrote: "I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the United States of America. And to the republic, for which it stands. One nation under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." ^Pride and honor and loyalty to a country. "Mmmmm-mmm Obama" ^Pride and loyalty to a human. Leaders are not people I would consider myself loyal to, simply because if they start acting stupid, I want them OUT of power. Loyalty is NOT a good thing when it applies to ONE person's ideas. Anyone can have a dumb idea, and as a responsible nation, we are to point out and protest those ideas, not be loyal to them because 'our great leader said it so it's true.' Another thing, I think that it should be required that kids at least stand in respect to the pledge. You don't want to recite it? Fine. But you need to respect your country, its history, and what it stands for. If you disagree with everything about it and you hate it that much... go somewhere else. Agreed. Or be proactive and try to change what you honestly think is wrong. That's why we have the Constitution, and that's why the Constitution can be amended.
xxthephoenix89xx wrote: "I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the United States of America. And to the republic, for which it stands. One nation under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." ^Pride and honor and loyalty to a country. "Mmmmm-mmm Obama" ^Pride and loyalty to a human. Leaders are not people I would consider myself loyal to, simply because if they start acting stupid, I want them OUT of power. Loyalty is NOT a good thing when it applies to ONE person's ideas. Anyone can have a dumb idea, and as a responsible nation, we are to point out and protest those ideas, not be loyal to them because 'our great leader said it so it's true.' Another thing, I think that it should be required that kids at least stand in respect to the pledge. You don't want to recite it? Fine. But you need to respect your country, its history, and what it stands for. If you disagree with everything about it and you hate it that much... go somewhere else.
Posts: 3312
xxthephoenix89xx wrote: You still need to respect and acknowledge your countries past, no matter how sick and nasty you think it is. You don't agree with states, fine. Do you agree with the rest? No? Fine. YOU STILL HAVE TO STAND. You don't have to recite it, but you have to stand. My generation has lost all respect for this country, and it makes me sick. At my college football games, I feel like kicking people who don't stand for the National Anthem in the head. You are at college, living a better life than the majority of the world, and you can't stand and respect that? Grrrr....
Sep 23 09 9:47 PM
barrelracer89 wrote: xxthephoenix89xx wrote: You still need to respect and acknowledge your countries past, no matter how sick and nasty you think it is. You don't agree with states, fine. Do you agree with the rest? No? Fine. YOU STILL HAVE TO STAND. You don't have to recite it, but you have to stand. My generation has lost all respect for this country, and it makes me sick. At my college football games, I feel like kicking people who don't stand for the National Anthem in the head. You are at college, living a better life than the majority of the world, and you can't stand and respect that? Grrrr.... QFT.
Posts: 11945
WhoKilledBambi wrote: charleyharvey wrote: But isn't it harmful to a nation for it to be full of people whose political views are nothing but destructive and who hope only for negative things to happen? It seems logical to me that a country would try to repress the spread of the mindset where people think it would be ok for their country to be destroyed. I'm not saying I agree; just you can hardly blame them. But it's not negative (most of the time) People of most ideologies simply want people to live better lives. (there are, of course, exceptions) They just disagree on how this should be achieved.
charleyharvey wrote: But isn't it harmful to a nation for it to be full of people whose political views are nothing but destructive and who hope only for negative things to happen? It seems logical to me that a country would try to repress the spread of the mindset where people think it would be ok for their country to be destroyed. I'm not saying I agree; just you can hardly blame them.
Sep 23 09 9:50 PM
WhoKilledBambi wrote: barrelracer89 wrote: xxthephoenix89xx wrote: You still need to respect and acknowledge your countries past, no matter how sick and nasty you think it is. You don't agree with states, fine. Do you agree with the rest? No? Fine. YOU STILL HAVE TO STAND. You don't have to recite it, but you have to stand. My generation has lost all respect for this country, and it makes me sick. At my college football games, I feel like kicking people who don't stand for the National Anthem in the head. You are at college, living a better life than the majority of the world, and you can't stand and respect that? Grrrr.... QFT. I really fail to see why this is an issue.
Sep 23 09 9:51 PM
Sep 23 09 9:52 PM
WhoKilledBambi wrote: Maybe it would help if I sort of outlined what I believed? I personally see Anarcho Communism as the ultimate freedom and equality. The epitome of what we should strive for as a society. Do I think we'll ever get there? I don't know. Does it matter? No. What matters is that every day we strive to get there. On whatever scale is managed, take a step towards that goal. All that really matters is that we're moving forwards. I am in the TEENY TINY MINORITY. But then so is every other radical leftist : P Whether or not there will be chaos seriously depends on who you talk to. You should have a discussion with my friend Geoff. Brilliant young man. He explains anarco syndicalism very well. not a touch of chaos to be found!
Sep 23 09 9:53 PM
barrelracer89 wrote: WhoKilledBambi wrote: barrelracer89 wrote: xxthephoenix89xx wrote: You still need to respect and acknowledge your countries past, no matter how sick and nasty you think it is. You don't agree with states, fine. Do you agree with the rest? No? Fine. YOU STILL HAVE TO STAND. You don't have to recite it, but you have to stand. My generation has lost all respect for this country, and it makes me sick. At my college football games, I feel like kicking people who don't stand for the National Anthem in the head. You are at college, living a better life than the majority of the world, and you can't stand and respect that? Grrrr.... QFT. I really fail to see why this is an issue. Because the founding of our country should be a proud moment for all US citizens. It was an amazing moment in history. And I also feel the need to honor the people who have given their lives to protect my country so that I can sit here on the FiSH forums and have political discussions.
Sep 23 09 9:54 PM
barrelracer89 wrote: WhoKilledBambi wrote: Maybe it would help if I sort of outlined what I believed? I personally see Anarcho Communism as the ultimate freedom and equality. The epitome of what we should strive for as a society. Do I think we'll ever get there? I don't know. Does it matter? No. What matters is that every day we strive to get there. On whatever scale is managed, take a step towards that goal. All that really matters is that we're moving forwards. I am in the TEENY TINY MINORITY. But then so is every other radical leftist : P Whether or not there will be chaos seriously depends on who you talk to. You should have a discussion with my friend Geoff. Brilliant young man. He explains anarco syndicalism very well. not a touch of chaos to be found! My old HS English teacher told me a lot about anarcho Communism. Fundamentally I don't see how it could ever work on a national level.
Sep 23 09 9:55 PM
Sep 23 09 9:56 PM
WhoKilledBambi wrote: barrelracer89 wrote: WhoKilledBambi wrote: barrelracer89 wrote: xxthephoenix89xx wrote: You still need to respect and acknowledge your countries past, no matter how sick and nasty you think it is. You don't agree with states, fine. Do you agree with the rest? No? Fine. YOU STILL HAVE TO STAND. You don't have to recite it, but you have to stand. My generation has lost all respect for this country, and it makes me sick. At my college football games, I feel like kicking people who don't stand for the National Anthem in the head. You are at college, living a better life than the majority of the world, and you can't stand and respect that? Grrrr.... QFT. I really fail to see why this is an issue. Because the founding of our country should be a proud moment for all US citizens. It was an amazing moment in history. And I also feel the need to honor the people who have given their lives to protect my country so that I can sit here on the FiSH forums and have political discussions. America hardly came into it's own as a strong country on the world stage until the very early 1900s. I don't understand how Americans can be proud of their bloody revolution against a ruling power, and abhor the thought of another.
Sep 23 09 9:58 PM
charleyharvey wrote: That did help. Thanks Bambi. I will probably never get the chance to meet Geoff, but I'm sure it would be a very interesting conversation. Ha.
Sep 23 09 10:01 PM
barrelracer89 wrote: WhoKilledBambi wrote: barrelracer89 wrote: WhoKilledBambi wrote: barrelracer89 wrote: xxthephoenix89xx wrote: You still need to respect and acknowledge your countries past, no matter how sick and nasty you think it is. You don't agree with states, fine. Do you agree with the rest? No? Fine. YOU STILL HAVE TO STAND. You don't have to recite it, but you have to stand. My generation has lost all respect for this country, and it makes me sick. At my college football games, I feel like kicking people who don't stand for the National Anthem in the head. You are at college, living a better life than the majority of the world, and you can't stand and respect that? Grrrr.... QFT. I really fail to see why this is an issue. Because the founding of our country should be a proud moment for all US citizens. It was an amazing moment in history. And I also feel the need to honor the people who have given their lives to protect my country so that I can sit here on the FiSH forums and have political discussions. America hardly came into it's own as a strong country on the world stage until the very early 1900s. I don't understand how Americans can be proud of their bloody revolution against a ruling power, and abhor the thought of another. The strength of the nation isn't the point. And besides, America made her point in the war of 1812: "Stop fucking with us, because we are legitimate". The founding of a nation based primarily on the words of great men is what makes the nation great. And most revolutions are bloody.
Sep 23 09 10:05 PM
Posts: 3857
barrelracer89 wrote: barrelracer89 wrote: xxthephoenix89xx wrote: If you disagree with everything about it and you hate it that much... go somewhere else. That's why we have the Constitution, and that's why the Constitution can be amended. If you honestly don't want to "pledge allegiance to the flag" then that's fine. . .but honestly, there are other places you could go where you wouldn't have to worry about that. I don't want to sound like I'm saying "love it or leave it", but if you have a problem with the US government/state system/etc. then why wouldn't you put yourself in a more comfortable place?
barrelracer89 wrote: xxthephoenix89xx wrote: If you disagree with everything about it and you hate it that much... go somewhere else. That's why we have the Constitution, and that's why the Constitution can be amended.
xxthephoenix89xx wrote: If you disagree with everything about it and you hate it that much... go somewhere else.
Sep 23 09 10:06 PM
Sep 23 09 10:07 PM
xxthephoenix89xx wrote: I'm proud of my country, and what my country stands for. Why should people be proud of their ethnicity? I mean, its meaningless and unimportant. Most ethnicities have a bloody past. (devil's advocate again) How will we ever learn how to improve for the future if we don't respect what's happened in the past? I honor the man and women that have died for me, and my liberties that I enjoy today. I honor the (ever flawed, but always improving) government in this country. Do I agree with Obama? Oh HELL no. Do I respect him as the leader that my country voted for, and the man I will have to deal with for another 3.5 years? YES. It's part of growing up, the whole respect thing. (not saying you haven't. But it really is a big part of growing up.)
Sep 23 09 10:08 PM
WhoKilledBambi wrote: barrelracer89 wrote: WhoKilledBambi wrote: barrelracer89 wrote: WhoKilledBambi wrote: barrelracer89 wrote: xxthephoenix89xx wrote: You still need to respect and acknowledge your countries past, no matter how sick and nasty you think it is. You don't agree with states, fine. Do you agree with the rest? No? Fine. YOU STILL HAVE TO STAND. You don't have to recite it, but you have to stand. My generation has lost all respect for this country, and it makes me sick. At my college football games, I feel like kicking people who don't stand for the National Anthem in the head. You are at college, living a better life than the majority of the world, and you can't stand and respect that? Grrrr.... QFT. I really fail to see why this is an issue. Because the founding of our country should be a proud moment for all US citizens. It was an amazing moment in history. And I also feel the need to honor the people who have given their lives to protect my country so that I can sit here on the FiSH forums and have political discussions. America hardly came into it's own as a strong country on the world stage until the very early 1900s. I don't understand how Americans can be proud of their bloody revolution against a ruling power, and abhor the thought of another. The strength of the nation isn't the point. And besides, America made her point in the war of 1812: "Stop fucking with us, because we are legitimate". The founding of a nation based primarily on the words of great men is what makes the nation great. And most revolutions are bloody. The Bolshevik revolution wasn't bloody. So the Bolsheviks saying "stop fucking with us, because we are legitimate" or the hard left of america saying "stop fucking with us, because we are legitimate" is totally different? Because even if you don't agree with the (and I do not), Lenin, Trotsky, Zinoviev, Kamenev and the rest of them (yes, including Stalin, although he was pretty much useless at the time) were great men. Just a different kind of greatness.
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