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Posts: 33224
May 3 08 8:55 AM
HorseHawk wrote: TrickRoperDeluxe wrote: Ditto. They are unfortunately fairly popular. I have never an will never use one. _______________________________________________________________________ lol...the manufactures say this bit is good to soften up a horses mouth...yea, like walking through a sticker patch barefooted.
TrickRoperDeluxe wrote: Ditto. They are unfortunately fairly popular. I have never an will never use one.
Ditto.
_______________________________________________________________________
Posts: 2203
May 3 08 9:06 AM
Nothing will convince me a chain bit is not severe. I understand the mechanics, and I know it will conform to the mouth. But that's not he kind of conformation that makes it less severe, it conforms in a way that pressure is applied to the bars, tongue and lips/corners of the mouth. It will pinch the sides of the tongue and the lips against the bars. For those who want to test it themselves, put a chain in your mouth and pull downwards and backwards, then put a snaffle in your mouth and do the same. TRD mentioned testing a chain and a snaffle on his arm, and finding the chain more comfortable, but there's a reason for that. When you test an bit on your own arm, you'll have to 'pull' on the bit with your other hand, and by doing that you pinch the rings of the bit together, which will creative a different kind of pressure than when the bit is in the horse's mouth, because than you can't pull the rings towards each other (unless the bit is way too big and you cross your reins under the horse's chin). If you pull the rings together while the bit is on your arm, and the further you do that, you'll have a smaller area where pressure is applied (and thus more pressure) than when you'd pull the rings straight backwards as you would when the bit is in the horse's mouth. A chain on your arm will do the opposite. When you pull the rings of a chain bit together, the pressure would be applied to a bigger area than when you'd pull the rings straight backwards, and thus less pressure. And an arm is nothing like a horse's mouth. Your own mouth isn't either, but it does give a better idea of the pressure applied.
Curb bits with a chain mouthpiece are even worse, because of the leverage. And I've never seen one that had a solid metal bar between the ends of the shanks, something that is essential with any curb bit that doesn't have a solid mouthpiece.
I've corrected many 'problem' horses, and I've never had to use something more severe than a snaffle (smooth mouthpiece, french link or mullen and never thinner than 1/2"). I don't treat horses as pets, but I do believe in being as hard on a horse as I need to be, and as gentle as I can be.
May 3 08 9:15 AM
Dutchy wrote: Nothing will convince me a chain bit is not severe. Thats your choice. I understand the mechanics, and I know it will conform to the mouth. But that's not he kind of conformation that makes it less severe, it conforms in a way that pressure is applied to the bars, tongue and lips/corners of the mouth. It will pinch the sides of the tongue and the lips against the bars. No it doesnt. With a well made bit theres no pinching , its just not possible for it to pinch the tongue. For those who want to test it themselves, put a chain in your mouth and pull downwards and backwards, then put a snaffle in your mouth and do the same. TRD mentioned testing a chain and a snaffle on his arm, and finding the chain more comfortable, but there's a reason for that. When you test an bit on your own arm, you'll have to 'pull' on the bit with your other hand, and by doing that you pinch the rings of the bit together, which will creative a different kind of pressure than when the bit is in the horse's mouth, because than you can't pull the rings towards each other (unless the bit is way too big and you cross your reins under the horse's chin). If you pull the rings together while the bit is on your arm, and the further you do that, you'll have a smaller area where pressure is applied (and thus more pressure) than when you'd pull the rings straight backwards as you would when the bit is in the horse's mouth. Trying a bit in your own mouth is a faulty example. Our mouths are built VASTLY different then a horses. Hence why the arm or palm should be used. A chain on your arm will do the opposite. When you pull the rings of a chain bit together, the pressure would be applied to a bigger area than when you'd pull the rings straight backwards, and thus less pressure. Huh a bigger area being used vs. a smaller on , hmm which is worse again? And an arm is nothing like a horse's mouth. Your own mouth isn't either, but it does give a better idea of the pressure applied. Curb bits with a chain mouthpiece are even worse, because of the leverage. And I've never seen one that had a solid metal bar between the ends of the shanks, something that is essential with any curb bit that doesn't have a solid mouthpiece. You don't need a slobber bar on most bits , usually its a personal choice as to wether they are used or not. Could you tell me why its essential? I've corrected many 'problem' horses, and I've never had to use something more severe than a snaffle (smooth mouthpiece, french link or mullen and never thinner than 1/2"). I don't treat horses as pets, but I do believe in being as hard on a horse as I need to be, and as gentle as I can be. I have never had to use anything more severe then a snaffle either.
Nothing will convince me a chain bit is not severe. Thats your choice. I understand the mechanics, and I know it will conform to the mouth. But that's not he kind of conformation that makes it less severe, it conforms in a way that pressure is applied to the bars, tongue and lips/corners of the mouth. It will pinch the sides of the tongue and the lips against the bars. No it doesnt. With a well made bit theres no pinching , its just not possible for it to pinch the tongue. For those who want to test it themselves, put a chain in your mouth and pull downwards and backwards, then put a snaffle in your mouth and do the same. TRD mentioned testing a chain and a snaffle on his arm, and finding the chain more comfortable, but there's a reason for that. When you test an bit on your own arm, you'll have to 'pull' on the bit with your other hand, and by doing that you pinch the rings of the bit together, which will creative a different kind of pressure than when the bit is in the horse's mouth, because than you can't pull the rings towards each other (unless the bit is way too big and you cross your reins under the horse's chin). If you pull the rings together while the bit is on your arm, and the further you do that, you'll have a smaller area where pressure is applied (and thus more pressure) than when you'd pull the rings straight backwards as you would when the bit is in the horse's mouth. Trying a bit in your own mouth is a faulty example. Our mouths are built VASTLY different then a horses. Hence why the arm or palm should be used. A chain on your arm will do the opposite. When you pull the rings of a chain bit together, the pressure would be applied to a bigger area than when you'd pull the rings straight backwards, and thus less pressure. Huh a bigger area being used vs. a smaller on , hmm which is worse again? And an arm is nothing like a horse's mouth. Your own mouth isn't either, but it does give a better idea of the pressure applied.
Curb bits with a chain mouthpiece are even worse, because of the leverage. And I've never seen one that had a solid metal bar between the ends of the shanks, something that is essential with any curb bit that doesn't have a solid mouthpiece. You don't need a slobber bar on most bits , usually its a personal choice as to wether they are used or not. Could you tell me why its essential? I've corrected many 'problem' horses, and I've never had to use something more severe than a snaffle (smooth mouthpiece, french link or mullen and never thinner than 1/2"). I don't treat horses as pets, but I do believe in being as hard on a horse as I need to be, and as gentle as I can be. I have never had to use anything more severe then a snaffle either.
Posts: 6812
May 3 08 11:31 AM
May 3 08 11:45 AM
KingOfTheJungle04 wrote: I think we've strayed from the fact that JackieE was not using the chain bit (which is still severe, IMHO), but the chain of a leadrope. The difference with that, is a chain bit can only be so slack (and can only pinch/injure to a certain point) while a chain leadrope can get quite slack and then suddenly go taut, The weight of the chain on the lead would keep it from going slack , simple science. which can result in severe pinching and some injuries to the mouth. As I said before, if this colt (after 4.5 months of training!) does not know what "whoa" means, chances are he doesn't know how to lunge/be lunged properly as chances are was jerking on the lunge a lot. I know from experience some of the horses I had the.. uhm, joy of working with and lunging, that it takes a lot of time and patience to get them to actually be supple on the lunge instead of pulling against it to head in one direction, or to come in too close into the personal space of the "lunger". So, until JackieE comes here to clear things up, I'm coing to assume that there was a lot of angry yanking involved with "lunging" that colt as her post does sound like she lost her temper. Yeah she probaly did loose her temper , but ya know what , Young horses act up an act like jerks sometimes. Doesnt mean they are poorly trained , they are young an prone to acting out more then a mature horse whose learned to control itself. I find it amusing that the manufacturer of the bit that appears to have a bicycle chain design says it's able to supple up a horses mouth, yet people here (the ones defending the chain bit) are saying the opposite of that. It is no different than our opinion on the chain bit. It is different. The manufacture is trying to sell it to anyone who will buy it.
I think this is a solid case of people not knowing the mechanics of a device enough to have a real opinion on it.
Posts: 14759
May 3 08 12:17 PM
TrickRoperDeluxe wrote: I think this is a solid case of people not knowing the mechanics of a device enough to have a real opinion on it. _______________________________________________________________________ Correct, a snaffle with a medium size chain mouthpiece is not as harsh as a single break snaffle that has a nutcracker effect. As the chain mouthpiece works lightly on the bars and corners of lips while adding some tongue pressure. It gives a horse more bend than a single break does with less direct pressure on just the bars like the single break mouthpiece as there's more uniform pressure in more areas to give relief as opposed to only one area of pressure. Unlike regular smooth rolled chain, the bicycle chain mouthpiece has thin edges on the links making it cut into the horses mouth on the tongue, bars & corner of the lips.It's noted for being one of the harshest bits to use on a horse.
I think this is a solid case of people not knowing the mechanics of a device enough to have a real opinion on it. _______________________________________________________________________ Correct, a snaffle with a medium size chain mouthpiece is not as harsh as a single break snaffle that has a nutcracker effect. As the chain mouthpiece works lightly on the bars and corners of lips while adding some tongue pressure. It gives a horse more bend than a single break does with less direct pressure on just the bars like the single break mouthpiece as there's more uniform pressure in more areas to give relief as opposed to only one area of pressure. Unlike regular smooth rolled chain, the bicycle chain mouthpiece has thin edges on the links making it cut into the horses mouth on the tongue, bars & corner of the lips.It's noted for being one of the harshest bits to use on a horse.
Posts: 6634
May 3 08 12:21 PM
May 3 08 12:26 PM
TrickRoperDeluxe wrote: Yeah she probaly did loose her temper , but ya know what , Young horses act up an act like jerks sometimes. Doesnt mean they are poorly trained , they are young an prone to acting out more then a mature horse whose learned to control itself.
Yeah she probaly did loose her temper , but ya know what , Young horses act up an act like jerks sometimes. Doesnt mean they are poorly trained , they are young an prone to acting out more then a mature horse whose learned to control itself.
May 3 08 12:31 PM
KingOfTheJungle04 wrote: TrickRoperDeluxe wrote: Yeah she probaly did loose her temper , but ya know what , Young horses act up an act like jerks sometimes. Doesnt mean they are poorly trained , they are young an prone to acting out more then a mature horse whose learned to control itself. I guess that comment IS coming from someone who thinks shooting a horse with a pellet gun because it's pawing at a gate isn't malicious. Its not malicious. Malicious would be trying to kill the horse with repeated BB shots. The manufacturers of that chain bit are preaching the same words as the bicycle chain bit, yet you refuse to see that both are harsh bits and only for expert riders to handle. Its all about the money , no manufacturer is going to call its product bad.
May 3 08 12:32 PM
Fetlock Up wrote: Not a physics major, huh? Maybe you should wait to preach science until you understand it.
May 3 08 12:53 PM
May 3 08 5:15 PM
TrickRoperDeluxe wrote: Dutchy wrote: Nothing will convince me a chain bit is not severe. Thats your choice. I understand the mechanics, and I know it will conform to the mouth. But that's not he kind of conformation that makes it less severe, it conforms in a way that pressure is applied to the bars, tongue and lips/corners of the mouth. It will pinch the sides of the tongue and the lips against the bars. No it doesnt. With a well made bit theres no pinching , its just not possible for it to pinch the tongue. What is to be well made about a piece of chain between 2 rings or shanks? And it is possible for a chain bit to pinch (maybe I should use another word for 'pinch', but I can't think of anything else), because of what the bit does when you pull on the reins. It's kinda hard for me to explain it in words in English, so I made some quick drawings in paint, as you will see, I'm not exactly artisticly gifted..... Rough drawing of a cross section of the mouth without a bit, just the tongue (the pink thing) and the bars on either side: And here roughly how a chain would work: When you pull the reins, the chain will extend out of the corners of the mouth a bit because without pressure, the surface on which the bit lies is naturally rounded. The chain flattens it where it lies when you pull, pressing the tongue against the bars, making a straight and thus shorter line, and the chain will extend a bit. And because it's a chain, it will make roughly a 90 degree angle in the corners of the mouth, pressing the lips / corners of the mouth against the bars. When you only pull one rein, it's even more severe, and the chain will rub over the bars. A chain will not lay flat in the horses mouth, any bit will rotate forward when you pull the reins, unless you will always only apply pressure at a 90 degree angle, and in that case, the horse will be behind the vertical. A french link snaffle will roughly do this: When you pull the reins, the mouthpiece will bend upwards, because the solid sides of the mouthpiece act like a lever. This gives pressure at the bars, but doesn't so much press the tongue against the bars. And it won't press the lips or corners of the mouth angainst the bars, because the part that rests on the bars and lips is rigid. So it does give pressure on less parts of the mouth, but generally the mouthpiece is thicker (it should be, I don't think mouthpieces less than 1/2" thick should be used at all) than a chain is, and it is smooth, which is much more comfortable when it moves over the bars. For those who want to test it themselves, put a chain in your mouth and pull downwards and backwards, then put a snaffle in your mouth and do the same. TRD mentioned testing a chain and a snaffle on his arm, and finding the chain more comfortable, but there's a reason for that. When you test an bit on your own arm, you'll have to 'pull' on the bit with your other hand, and by doing that you pinch the rings of the bit together, which will creative a different kind of pressure than when the bit is in the horse's mouth, because than you can't pull the rings towards each other (unless the bit is way too big and you cross your reins under the horse's chin). If you pull the rings together while the bit is on your arm, and the further you do that, you'll have a smaller area where pressure is applied (and thus more pressure) than when you'd pull the rings straight backwards as you would when the bit is in the horse's mouth. Trying a bit in your own mouth is a faulty example. Our mouths are built VASTLY different then a horses. Hence why the arm or palm should be used. Your arm is also vastly different than a horses mouth. It doesn't have parts that can be pressed against each other, and to try a bit on your own arm you can only use one hand, and you will pull the rings of the bit toward each other, something you can't do when the bit is in the horses mouth. Pulling the rings of a jointed snaffle towards each other will give a different kind of pressure (it will pinch much more) than pulling the rings straight downwards / backwards without pulling them closer together. A chain on your arm will do the opposite. When you pull the rings of a chain bit together, the pressure would be applied to a bigger area than when you'd pull the rings straight backwards, and thus less pressure. Huh a bigger area being used vs. a smaller on , hmm which is worse again? On your arm it will give pressure on a bigger area, because again, on you arm you will pull the rings towards each other, something you can't do when the chain is in your horse's mouth. By pulling the rings together the chain will contact more of the surface of you arm, opposed to a jointed snaffle that will contact less surface of your arm by pulling the rings together. So a jointed snaffle will feel more severe than it really is on your arm, and a chain will feel less severe than it really is on your arm. And an arm is nothing like a horse's mouth. Your own mouth isn't either, but it does give a better idea of the pressure applied. Curb bits with a chain mouthpiece are even worse, because of the leverage. And I've never seen one that had a solid metal bar between the ends of the shanks, something that is essential with any curb bit that doesn't have a solid mouthpiece. You don't need a slobber bar on most bits , usually its a personal choice as to wether they are used or not. Could you tell me why its essential? A curb bit with a solid mouthpiece doesn't need a slobber bar, but any curb bit that has a jointed mouth piece in any form does need a slobber bar. Without it, it allows for way to much independant movement of the shanks, which is both very confusing and uncomfortable for the horse. You could for example pull one rein and move only one shank. This will give lots of pressure to only one side of the mouth, more pressure than you could give when the other shank would move backwards to. You could also move one shank sideways, again not really comfortable. Best is to have a slobber bar that is welded to the shanks, although one that is connected by rings is better than nothing. I've corrected many 'problem' horses, and I've never had to use something more severe than a snaffle (smooth mouthpiece, french link or mullen and never thinner than 1/2"). I don't treat horses as pets, but I do believe in being as hard on a horse as I need to be, and as gentle as I can be. I have never had to use anything more severe then a snaffle either.
Dutchy wrote: Nothing will convince me a chain bit is not severe. Thats your choice. I understand the mechanics, and I know it will conform to the mouth. But that's not he kind of conformation that makes it less severe, it conforms in a way that pressure is applied to the bars, tongue and lips/corners of the mouth. It will pinch the sides of the tongue and the lips against the bars. No it doesnt. With a well made bit theres no pinching , its just not possible for it to pinch the tongue. What is to be well made about a piece of chain between 2 rings or shanks? And it is possible for a chain bit to pinch (maybe I should use another word for 'pinch', but I can't think of anything else), because of what the bit does when you pull on the reins. It's kinda hard for me to explain it in words in English, so I made some quick drawings in paint, as you will see, I'm not exactly artisticly gifted..... Rough drawing of a cross section of the mouth without a bit, just the tongue (the pink thing) and the bars on either side: And here roughly how a chain would work: When you pull the reins, the chain will extend out of the corners of the mouth a bit because without pressure, the surface on which the bit lies is naturally rounded. The chain flattens it where it lies when you pull, pressing the tongue against the bars, making a straight and thus shorter line, and the chain will extend a bit. And because it's a chain, it will make roughly a 90 degree angle in the corners of the mouth, pressing the lips / corners of the mouth against the bars. When you only pull one rein, it's even more severe, and the chain will rub over the bars. A chain will not lay flat in the horses mouth, any bit will rotate forward when you pull the reins, unless you will always only apply pressure at a 90 degree angle, and in that case, the horse will be behind the vertical. A french link snaffle will roughly do this: When you pull the reins, the mouthpiece will bend upwards, because the solid sides of the mouthpiece act like a lever. This gives pressure at the bars, but doesn't so much press the tongue against the bars. And it won't press the lips or corners of the mouth angainst the bars, because the part that rests on the bars and lips is rigid. So it does give pressure on less parts of the mouth, but generally the mouthpiece is thicker (it should be, I don't think mouthpieces less than 1/2" thick should be used at all) than a chain is, and it is smooth, which is much more comfortable when it moves over the bars. For those who want to test it themselves, put a chain in your mouth and pull downwards and backwards, then put a snaffle in your mouth and do the same. TRD mentioned testing a chain and a snaffle on his arm, and finding the chain more comfortable, but there's a reason for that. When you test an bit on your own arm, you'll have to 'pull' on the bit with your other hand, and by doing that you pinch the rings of the bit together, which will creative a different kind of pressure than when the bit is in the horse's mouth, because than you can't pull the rings towards each other (unless the bit is way too big and you cross your reins under the horse's chin). If you pull the rings together while the bit is on your arm, and the further you do that, you'll have a smaller area where pressure is applied (and thus more pressure) than when you'd pull the rings straight backwards as you would when the bit is in the horse's mouth. Trying a bit in your own mouth is a faulty example. Our mouths are built VASTLY different then a horses. Hence why the arm or palm should be used. Your arm is also vastly different than a horses mouth. It doesn't have parts that can be pressed against each other, and to try a bit on your own arm you can only use one hand, and you will pull the rings of the bit toward each other, something you can't do when the bit is in the horses mouth. Pulling the rings of a jointed snaffle towards each other will give a different kind of pressure (it will pinch much more) than pulling the rings straight downwards / backwards without pulling them closer together. A chain on your arm will do the opposite. When you pull the rings of a chain bit together, the pressure would be applied to a bigger area than when you'd pull the rings straight backwards, and thus less pressure. Huh a bigger area being used vs. a smaller on , hmm which is worse again? On your arm it will give pressure on a bigger area, because again, on you arm you will pull the rings towards each other, something you can't do when the chain is in your horse's mouth. By pulling the rings together the chain will contact more of the surface of you arm, opposed to a jointed snaffle that will contact less surface of your arm by pulling the rings together. So a jointed snaffle will feel more severe than it really is on your arm, and a chain will feel less severe than it really is on your arm. And an arm is nothing like a horse's mouth. Your own mouth isn't either, but it does give a better idea of the pressure applied. Curb bits with a chain mouthpiece are even worse, because of the leverage. And I've never seen one that had a solid metal bar between the ends of the shanks, something that is essential with any curb bit that doesn't have a solid mouthpiece. You don't need a slobber bar on most bits , usually its a personal choice as to wether they are used or not. Could you tell me why its essential? A curb bit with a solid mouthpiece doesn't need a slobber bar, but any curb bit that has a jointed mouth piece in any form does need a slobber bar. Without it, it allows for way to much independant movement of the shanks, which is both very confusing and uncomfortable for the horse. You could for example pull one rein and move only one shank. This will give lots of pressure to only one side of the mouth, more pressure than you could give when the other shank would move backwards to. You could also move one shank sideways, again not really comfortable. Best is to have a slobber bar that is welded to the shanks, although one that is connected by rings is better than nothing. I've corrected many 'problem' horses, and I've never had to use something more severe than a snaffle (smooth mouthpiece, french link or mullen and never thinner than 1/2"). I don't treat horses as pets, but I do believe in being as hard on a horse as I need to be, and as gentle as I can be. I have never had to use anything more severe then a snaffle either.
Nothing will convince me a chain bit is not severe. Thats your choice. I understand the mechanics, and I know it will conform to the mouth. But that's not he kind of conformation that makes it less severe, it conforms in a way that pressure is applied to the bars, tongue and lips/corners of the mouth. It will pinch the sides of the tongue and the lips against the bars. No it doesnt. With a well made bit theres no pinching , its just not possible for it to pinch the tongue. What is to be well made about a piece of chain between 2 rings or shanks? And it is possible for a chain bit to pinch (maybe I should use another word for 'pinch', but I can't think of anything else), because of what the bit does when you pull on the reins. It's kinda hard for me to explain it in words in English, so I made some quick drawings in paint, as you will see, I'm not exactly artisticly gifted..... Rough drawing of a cross section of the mouth without a bit, just the tongue (the pink thing) and the bars on either side: And here roughly how a chain would work: When you pull the reins, the chain will extend out of the corners of the mouth a bit because without pressure, the surface on which the bit lies is naturally rounded. The chain flattens it where it lies when you pull, pressing the tongue against the bars, making a straight and thus shorter line, and the chain will extend a bit. And because it's a chain, it will make roughly a 90 degree angle in the corners of the mouth, pressing the lips / corners of the mouth against the bars. When you only pull one rein, it's even more severe, and the chain will rub over the bars. A chain will not lay flat in the horses mouth, any bit will rotate forward when you pull the reins, unless you will always only apply pressure at a 90 degree angle, and in that case, the horse will be behind the vertical. A french link snaffle will roughly do this: When you pull the reins, the mouthpiece will bend upwards, because the solid sides of the mouthpiece act like a lever. This gives pressure at the bars, but doesn't so much press the tongue against the bars. And it won't press the lips or corners of the mouth angainst the bars, because the part that rests on the bars and lips is rigid. So it does give pressure on less parts of the mouth, but generally the mouthpiece is thicker (it should be, I don't think mouthpieces less than 1/2" thick should be used at all) than a chain is, and it is smooth, which is much more comfortable when it moves over the bars. For those who want to test it themselves, put a chain in your mouth and pull downwards and backwards, then put a snaffle in your mouth and do the same. TRD mentioned testing a chain and a snaffle on his arm, and finding the chain more comfortable, but there's a reason for that. When you test an bit on your own arm, you'll have to 'pull' on the bit with your other hand, and by doing that you pinch the rings of the bit together, which will creative a different kind of pressure than when the bit is in the horse's mouth, because than you can't pull the rings towards each other (unless the bit is way too big and you cross your reins under the horse's chin). If you pull the rings together while the bit is on your arm, and the further you do that, you'll have a smaller area where pressure is applied (and thus more pressure) than when you'd pull the rings straight backwards as you would when the bit is in the horse's mouth. Trying a bit in your own mouth is a faulty example. Our mouths are built VASTLY different then a horses. Hence why the arm or palm should be used. Your arm is also vastly different than a horses mouth. It doesn't have parts that can be pressed against each other, and to try a bit on your own arm you can only use one hand, and you will pull the rings of the bit toward each other, something you can't do when the bit is in the horses mouth. Pulling the rings of a jointed snaffle towards each other will give a different kind of pressure (it will pinch much more) than pulling the rings straight downwards / backwards without pulling them closer together. A chain on your arm will do the opposite. When you pull the rings of a chain bit together, the pressure would be applied to a bigger area than when you'd pull the rings straight backwards, and thus less pressure. Huh a bigger area being used vs. a smaller on , hmm which is worse again? On your arm it will give pressure on a bigger area, because again, on you arm you will pull the rings towards each other, something you can't do when the chain is in your horse's mouth. By pulling the rings together the chain will contact more of the surface of you arm, opposed to a jointed snaffle that will contact less surface of your arm by pulling the rings together. So a jointed snaffle will feel more severe than it really is on your arm, and a chain will feel less severe than it really is on your arm. And an arm is nothing like a horse's mouth. Your own mouth isn't either, but it does give a better idea of the pressure applied.
Curb bits with a chain mouthpiece are even worse, because of the leverage. And I've never seen one that had a solid metal bar between the ends of the shanks, something that is essential with any curb bit that doesn't have a solid mouthpiece. You don't need a slobber bar on most bits , usually its a personal choice as to wether they are used or not. Could you tell me why its essential? A curb bit with a solid mouthpiece doesn't need a slobber bar, but any curb bit that has a jointed mouth piece in any form does need a slobber bar. Without it, it allows for way to much independant movement of the shanks, which is both very confusing and uncomfortable for the horse. You could for example pull one rein and move only one shank. This will give lots of pressure to only one side of the mouth, more pressure than you could give when the other shank would move backwards to. You could also move one shank sideways, again not really comfortable. Best is to have a slobber bar that is welded to the shanks, although one that is connected by rings is better than nothing. I've corrected many 'problem' horses, and I've never had to use something more severe than a snaffle (smooth mouthpiece, french link or mullen and never thinner than 1/2"). I don't treat horses as pets, but I do believe in being as hard on a horse as I need to be, and as gentle as I can be. I have never had to use anything more severe then a snaffle either.
Posts: 6014
May 3 08 6:21 PM
HoneyBlue65 wrote: GrotesqueLullaby wrote: I can't stand horses that go-go-go. LEARN TO STOP. I need brakes on a horse, then we can go faster. Absolutely no grazing, at least for my personal horse. The minute that lead goes on she can kiss grass goodbye becase even if we stand in a lush field and I'm chatting away her head much be up and she must be alert. Neighing. I hate it, I hate it. My horse is not allowed to neigh to her best bud the minute that lead goes on. She's not even allowed to look when he whinnies like a scorned lover. =P Food aggressive. I always make sure they know their place, same goes for my other animals. If I decide to waltz in while they're halfway done their meal then they will just have to sit there and wait for her ladyship to say "when." For most other things I am sadly tolerant. xD Hey, the neighing bothers me too. How have you worked with that?
GrotesqueLullaby wrote: I can't stand horses that go-go-go. LEARN TO STOP. I need brakes on a horse, then we can go faster. Absolutely no grazing, at least for my personal horse. The minute that lead goes on she can kiss grass goodbye becase even if we stand in a lush field and I'm chatting away her head much be up and she must be alert. Neighing. I hate it, I hate it. My horse is not allowed to neigh to her best bud the minute that lead goes on. She's not even allowed to look when he whinnies like a scorned lover. =P Food aggressive. I always make sure they know their place, same goes for my other animals. If I decide to waltz in while they're halfway done their meal then they will just have to sit there and wait for her ladyship to say "when." For most other things I am sadly tolerant. xD
This is a vveerry late reply, I know, but I'd feel bad not answering. Honestly, all I did was work on her other skills and have her know 100% the cues (sp?) for attention. After a while she just gave up on replying because she knew I'd get after her ass, either by a slap with the end of the lead rope, chasing, backing, or something else attention getting. I've gotten it to the point where even the gelding is behaving himself. xD All in all, it works though. She hasn't replied for months. so really, I just worked on her behavior in other areas. Like when longeing how you want eyes and ears on you, and applied that to in-hand walking.
May 3 08 8:26 PM
Fetlock Up wrote: TRD, we are talking about flesh and metal interacting. The model is not a static one because the horse is alive and moving and unknown torque from multiple directions can be applied via the reins. The weight of the rings keeps it laying flat , thats where I find a drawback to using a chain bit. Theres never a 100% release. The bit doesn't necessarily hang down when the bridle is holding the bit whereever it is adjusted to. There is opportunity for pinching regardless of whether you recognise it or not. Where? You keep saying its there , but where is this pinching? There is opportunity for cutting because the diameter of the chain is small. If a horse can cut their mouth with any bit, why is it so hard for you to admit the chain bit can cut a horse? A chain bit is just as thick if not thicker then most snaffles. A horse cannot cut there mouth with any bit. Unless there is a sharp point CUTTING it is not possible. A bit can however be used improperly or fit poorly an cause a sore. But its not possible to cut the tongue/bars with a bit that is well made. There is no way to guarantee the chain will lie flat against the lips. Especially with a loose ring there is opportunity for a sawing action with the chain. Maybe its because its midnight an im tired , but im failing to see this sawing action? If what I think your saying is the rider can saw the reins back an forth , well duh its gonna be pretty uncomfortable with any bit. If you could cover the chain with a rubber sleeve your argument would be more valid because the bit would be kinder. BUT as long as the links are interacting on flesh I cannot climb aboard and endorse the chain bits. A rubber sleeve? haha That would take away the ability to conform to a horses mouth that makes a chain bit worth using.
Dutchy - I'll get to you later in the afternoon , I gotta get to bed , gots me an early morning an a long day of work.
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